Unh... this is a dark day for us all. Having completed the Instrument model saving system, I was feeling quite pleased with myself, and proceeded to have a go at the MIDI output feature. A quick success (the first MIDI note to be outputted by reViSiT) was quickly followed by disaster: Cubase SX (1 and 2) has a bug in its VST MIDI implementation that effectively limit live notes to really small lengths. So, reViSiT can output the notes and Cubase can record them, but if you simply try to listen to them as reViSiT plays back, they are cut short every time. If you listen to what you have recorded, it all sounds perfect, but without the ability to hear the proper output from reViSiT, VST MIDI is effectively unusable. And this doesn't look like a bug Steinberg are keen to solve - it's been a "known issue" for some time.

And the story only gets worse in other applications. Logic, for example, does not support VST plug-in MIDI-out at all. Indeed, the only application I have come across that works perfectly is Plogue Bidule. Now, this can be used as a ReWire device, so you could conceivably use it with your sequencer hosts, but it gets cumbersome. The bottom line is that the VST spec says I should be able to do MIDI, but nearly no one (including Steinberg) is using the VST spec!

However, hopefully this is not the end of the MIDI world for reViSiT. I should be able to use DirectX (more precisely, DirectMusic) to supply the necessary MIDI communication for reViSiT. In some ways, this will be an advantage, since I will be liasing with the MIDI ports directly, and reViSiT will therefore be able to have significantly more than 16 MIDI channels (my system, for example, has 10 physical MIDI ports = 160 MIDI channels!). However, I'm not sure how reViSiT will communicate with VST hosts, i.e. how will one record the MIDI output of reViSiT in the sequencer. Obviously, it will be possible to use virtual MIDI drivers and loopback drivers, but again this is a little more cumbersome than I had in mind. Alternative, reViSiT might be able to masquerade as a ReWire device. It might be possible to simply add messages to existing DirectMusic input ports.

In any case, the bottom line is that MIDI output is now not so close - there is a lot of research, work and coding to be done. When I know a little more about the situation, I'll decide whether to release v0.86 without MIDI support or not. My thinking is that there are already a number of unreleased innovations, and if MIDI is going to be a little while, perhaps there should be a release to keep people happy.

Anyway, wish me luck.

All the best,
Chris

Tracktion appears to be much the same as Logic - no MIDI support at all.

Chris

Hmm, that was interesting. Okay, Tracktion does work... perfectly. Somehow I couldn't get it working last night... but now I can't get it not to work. Excellent.

Thanks Ron, I needed a boost to my morale! But I'm still going to have to look at other technologies: Logic and Cubase... well, okay, sod Logic... must work.

All the best,
Chris

... and ReWire is definitely a no go for Logic. To transmit MIDI to a program using ReWire, you need version 2, and Logic 5 is only version 1.

Back to the drawing board. Hmm... DirectMusic...

All the best,
Chris

Cubase VST32 seems to work - though timing accuracy is not great during live playback (another Steinberg bug). Charlie Steinberg is looking into our little problem, though, so fingers crossed.

It would seem the best way to proceed, however, is to get reViSiT to liase with MIDI devices through the OS (i.e. Windows), bypassing the host. When the user wants to record reViSiT's output into the VST host, they should use a loopback driver. A couple are faily well known: Hubi's Midi Loopback and MIDI-Yoke, but in the long run, I'll be looking at writing my own for dedicated use with reViSiT. That way, all the loopback driver installation, etc, can be handled during the reViSiT setup program, and users will be able to select "reViSiT" as the VST hosts's MIDI input port. I should be able to make the connection seamless enough so that most people don't even realise there's a separate loopback driver in use. Indeed, this method should be compatible with all MIDI applications - even applications where reViSiT isn't running / is not supported! Furthermore, there will be much greater flexbility and scope for reViSiT's MIDI implementation. The other advantage is that reViSiT's MIDI features can be written before our loopback driver is developed - as Hubi's or MIDIYoke can be used for test purposes.

However, I am already exploring the development of reViSiT's loopback driver - running tests, gathering information and SDK's (and DDK's!). I'll keep everyone informed of my progress.

All the best,
Chris

MIDI will be a part of reViSiT, just not using the VST spec - even the though MIDI out is also a part of the VST spec. However, MIDI input is definitely supported by the VST spec - otherwise, how would one control a VSTi?

Chris

Okay, here is the definitive answer to all reViSiT-related MIDI queries:

VST is simply  a specification for a plug-in format. The specification does have provision for MIDI output from plug-ins to the host (Esa: tell your friend pliant to look at the sendVstEventsToHost() command in the SDK). However, host developers often don't bother to implement this particular feature of the specification - they are more interested in the audio features. However, they do concede that MIDI input to the plug-in from the host is a requirement for VSTi's (obviously). If that wasn't bad enough, some notable hosts that profess to supporting MIDI output - such as some Steinberg products, including Cubsase SX and Nuendo - have a huge bug that makes them unusable in realtime use. Here's a breakdown of the level of support in different Audio apps, that I know about:

Hosts that support VST plug-in MIDI output:
Tracktion, Plogue Bidule, Steinberg Cubase VST32

Hosts that support VST plug-in MIDI output, with dibilitating bugs:
Steinberg Cubase SX, Steinberg Nuendo

Hosts that don't support VST plug-in MIDI output:
Emagic Logic, and many, many more

There are other methods of getting MIDI support in plug-ins, which involve system specific hacks, including the use of DirectX (DirectMusic) or MME and Loopback drivers. This is the route that many plug-ins have taken, and is almost certainly the route that reViSiT will take. This method has several advantages over the VST method:

(1) All hosts will support it.
(2) MIDI ports will be directly addressable - no phaffing around in Cubase trying to re-route the VST midi output to your synthesizer.
(3) The number of MIDI channels addressable will depend on your system and hardware, rather than being limited to VST's menial 16 channels.

The only real disadvantages, compared to VST Midi, are:

(a) It is harder to code (but I think I have it in hand).
(b) It is not portable - whoever ports reViSiT to MacOS will have to write their own MIDI support.
(c) This method only directly supports communication with external MIDI devices and ports. To get MIDI from reViSiT to your VST host (and therefore: to other VSTi's), the user will need to install a seperate Loopback driver - however, I will integrate this step with the reViSiT setup program, so that one is installed automatically and silently.

Thus, everyone should put their fears at rest.   reViSiT WILL HAVE BOTH MIDI INPUT AND OUTPUT , and it will even be better, more flexible and more powerful than the original MIDI intent! It will, however, take a little longer (see item (a)). For this reason, v0.86 will be released shortly without MIDI support, so that you can avail of the other non-MIDI improvements and fixes, while I set to work on the MIDI code itself. Currently, I am only waiting on feedback from someone who was experiencing a crashing problem with Logic, before the release. If the problem is gone, v0.86 will be available very shortly.

I hope this answers everyone's questions - but feel free to pose more.

All the best,
Chris

Hi Tomas,

Thanks for the info about the bug fix - very useful. Also, allow me to come back on some of you questions and comments:

> When you looked at Logic, did you look at the last version released for the PC? Because Logic for PC has some real
> problem when it comes to certain plugins. I would suggest that you disregard Logic due to its severe problems and
> complete lack of support (at least if you're looking at the PC side).

Let's not beat around the bush here, Logic is rubbish. One of the most buggy and poorly designed pieces of commercial software I've ever come across. It once might have held the advantage as regards feature set, but, when reliability isn't assured, what's the point? Apple are both welcome and suited to it. However, for some unknown reason, there is nonetheless a considerable Logic PC user base, so I'll be trying my very best to get reViSiT working with it. The version tested was 5.5 - the final PC version. I've also tried 5.1 and 5.2.

> Okay, so you won't implement VST midi out but instead use a virtual midi interface/midi loopback? In my experience
> that is utterly hopeless when it comes to latency and so forth.

I haven't done extensive tests yet, but I'm investigating a loopback driver called LoopBe1. Here's a quote from the website: "LoopBe1 is a native Windows 2k/XP WDM kernel mode driver, so expect the lowest possible latency. Due to its architecture, it doesn't work on Windows 95/98/ME." The architecture referred to will actually work with Windows 9x, but only when the driver is compiled under that operating system, so hopefully I will be able to support all Windows platforms. I have already bought the source code, but the developers are currently auspicious by their failure to deliver or even reply to emails. If you want to test the latency, you can get a free version from http://www.nerds.de.

> Besides, I see no problem with implementing both VST midi out and some kind of support for midi loopbacks.

Why bother with VST support when the alternative is better in every respect? Even if I did do both, the user would have to manually switch between them, and everyone would need to have the difference explained to them, which is a hit to user friendliness I do not welcome.

> There is one big problem with not using VST midi out, though (besides every other problem there is ), and that is
> that it would be impossible to route midi out from reViSiT directly to some other VST plug. You would need to use a
> midi loopback which means that every receiver of this midi out stream would have to use the same midi loopback as
> well. And that is definitely not the case with most VST plugins out there. No plugin I know of have support for listening
> to a midi interface or midi loopback or whatever. That functionality is in most cases in the VST host.

A plug-in that passes MIDI to the host uses a similar method if it uses either VST or a MIDI Loopback. In Cubase, the Loopback driver appears as another input, which can be directly routed to VST plug-in, if desired. In programs like EnergyXT and Bidule, you'll be able to add the Loopback's MIDI input as a seperate object (or machine, or whatever the terminology is) and connect that to your desired plug-in. I can understand that some people might be sharing the loopback driver among several applications (not just reViSiT), which is why I am endeavouring to produce my own driver, which will simply appear as a MIDI Input called "MIDI from reViSiT" (or similar). Furthermore, it should be possible to run up to 4 reViSiT loopback drivers in parallel.

> I don't think [MIDI loopback / plug-in to plug-in routing] would be possible in Cubase though, due to
> it's primitive routing system, but the VST specification would certainly allow it.

Trust me, it's possible. I know this works in Cubase SX: to send MIDI out from reViSiT, you will only need to output from reViSiT to the Loopback driver (which might be called "Send To Host", in reViSiT's drop down list of MIDI devices), then select "MIDI from reViSiT" as the MIDI input device to the second plug-in's track (e.g. Halion). In Cubase VST, you have to use the "MIDI Setup --> MIDI System..." settings to set-up the mapping of loopback input to your desired plug-in (though it might therefore be that only one VSTi will be controllable from reViSiT). In Logic, you can use the Environment window to link individual physical MIDI inputs (including loopback drivers) to Audio Instruments.

Hope this helps,

All the best,
Chris

> reViSiT is inside EnergyXT, sends midi to a loopback which Cubase listens to and routes the midi to a midi track which is connected to another input to EnergyXT.

This is the solution I had in mind, and I don't think EnergyXT users should have much of a problem - it is only one extra step than the normal loopback process, or even the VST process, if you weren't using a modular host like EnergyXT. I think, given that your running reViSiT (a tracker, which are usually standalone) as a plug-in to EnergyXT (a modular sequencer, which are usually standalone) as a plug-in to Cubase (which is standalone), you must expect some mind-bending routing down the line somewhere!

However... due to a breakdown in communication on the LoopBe1 website, it looks like I will not be getting the loopback driver source code (their "Commercial Use License" refers to their "Bundling License", and not the "Source Code License", which actually costs ?1000+). So if I want a dedicated loopback, I will have to code it myself from the ground up. I will probably do this at some point, but given that coding from scratch takes "slightly" longer that adapting other people's code, I will resort back to using VST Midi for "To Host" communication, but the current Win32 code will remain for MIDI comms with external devices (including your third-party loopback drivers).

So, in reViSiT, there will be a drop down list, listing all the MIDI devices installed on your system as well as a "To VST Host" option, which will use VST to send MIDI messages to whatever host you might have. This latter option will only work on hosts which support VST Midi (Cubase VST, Bidule, EnergyXT?, Tracktion and Cubase SX with fix - let me know if there are any hosts with Midi support that I've missed). Others will have to source their own loopback driver to send from reViSiT to the host. LoopBe1 should work fine, and is available free of charge.

When v0.86 is ready, I will begin updating the Supported Hosts table in the FAQ to denote whether each host supports VST Host MIDI or not. Development, however, has temporarily stalled because of  "other commitments", largely involving with the movement of small green pieces of paper - I should get going again at the beginning of next week.

All the best,
Chris