Hi Maarten,

Thanks for your feedback. Some of your requests have cropped up before on this forum, at which point I've given you the appropriate link - but it might be a good idea to have a browse around and look at the FAQ (http://www.nashnet.co.uk/english/revisit/faq.htm). Some are features that exclusively appeal to you, and wouldn't be as much use to others. Other requests seem to make the assumption that reViSiT has no other goal than to ape Impulse Tracker 2, which isn't correct. reViSiT aims to be the best interface, and IT2 was simply taken as a good starting point, the bits of IT2 I don't find sufficiently 'ergonomic' or can't make 'intuitive' will be replaced.

- doublescale ReViSiT / larger fonts
See http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=606458&CategoryID=361689&startcat=1&ThreadID=2144724. In the meantime, you could run at a lower screen resolution, if you're really suffering. This would work particularly well, if you have multi-monitors - put the host on one screen and the reViSiT window on the other at whatever resolution suits you.

- make an extra column for bankswitch, so I could change the bank at any step I want. Switching to another instrument with another bank won't do. I'm talking at least 30 banks per instrument orso :P Only LSB bank will do I think. *note* if you can't/won't change the channel-structure then what about this: hardlink the instrument to a channel, and use the current instrument channel for LSB bank change..!

I see no call for either feature, and I certainly don't think it's worth cluttering up the pattern editor with. Changing MIDI bank invariably changes the MIDI instrument (or voice), so you should expect to change the reViSiT instrument at the same time. It's logical. So, "switching to another instrument will do". Perhaps if you could explain why you're using 30 banks an instrument? In the meantime, why not use MIDI Effects (in Instrument List --> Pitch/MIDI --> MIDI Settings), to set up an LSB Bank effect (CC#32)? I haven't tried it, but it might work. Let me know.

Why? Few other programs need such a feature, why reViSiT? Can't you make do with the maximise button?

- make shortcuts or buttons that setup the pattern editor for exactly 32 rows and 5 channels

Why? I assume you're talking about the viewport, rather than the pattern itself. Why try to perpetuate the limits of IT2?

Actually already planned, but it will be a post v1.0 addition.

- *IT2-freak alert* the ctrl-j formula isn't correct. at 71% it should do: 64 45 31 22 15 10 etc. the '31' is a '32' in revisit.. :P

This is probably because reViSiT is more correct than IT2 - which would truncated instead of rounding numbers  (e.g. round 31.7 to 31, rather than 32). Again, there is no plan to reproduce the errors of the past.

This will be addressed in the next release. I prefer the term 'bug', rather than "a bit sucky".

- the statusinfo on top of the pattern (pattern, row, octave, res etc. etc.) is nearly unreadable in this colorscheme, use the same font as the patterndata, in black, if you keep the background cyan

All I can say is that if you think the background is cyan, then the problem is your monitor, not the colour scheme.  The font (and size) is the same as that used in many, many VST plug-ins. These readouts are not critical, and do not warrant the extra space the larger font would require.

- add support of the 'n' key in the order list to quickly add the next pattern according to the previous one

Hmm, I thought I had, but you're right - it's not there. I'll try to add it for the next release.

This is working fine in reViSiT - Alt-F10 solo/unsolos, Alt-F9 mutes/unmutes. Check your findings.

- I also deeply miss alt-Y for block-swap..

I should be able to add that.

Sayuhm, how do I change the tempo??

You can't. The concept of reViSiT revolves around the host controlling the tempo (largely because plug-ins aren't allowed to). This is so that it is easy for the user to see how the tracker is sync'd to the sequencer (or whatever the host is). reViSiT is designed principally so that you can track and sequence at the same time, not just so that your old IT files sound the same.

- again, important IT2 keys missing, it should really take only a day or 2 orso to fully implement *all* IT2-keys

I don't think one should draw comparisons between BlitzBasic and the C++ / VST architecture. I don't see people having to code their own keyboard handler's from the ground up in BlitzBasic - and 4 keyboard handlers have been written during reViSiT's history. Drawing the interface is also not as simple as 'draw a line here', 'write some text here' - I had to write the graphics code from the pixel up - and that includes the algorithm and bit patterns to draw the characters themselves. Besides, it's not as though IT2 keys are the only thing on my 'to do' list, so I think 2 days is a little wide of the mark. I am interested to hear about IT2 keys that are not supported, but will add them as I see fit.

Cubase SX3 is the primary test platform for reViSiT, and there are very few problems. Keyboard support has been one of the problems with developing reViSiT, since - though it is officially 'supported' by the VST plug-in spec - almost no host actually handles it reliably - not even Steinberg's. Considerable work as been expended to combat this problem. I've got it so that, in most hosts (SX3 included), if you ensure the Pattern Editor window is selected, that should be enough to ensure reViSiT gets the keyboard messages. If that still doesn't work, you're probably doing something wrong, but you might resort to "Manual" mode. This topic has been discussed countless times before, and shouldn't be hard to find on the forum, or the readme.txt, or the FAQ: http://www.nashnet.co.uk/english/revisit/faq.htm#keyboard.

This is unavoidable. VST plug-ins cannot control their host's tempo - it is not in the VST specification. In SX3, moving the song position marker to the appropriate place will set the appropriate tempo in reViSiT as well, to help you work on that particular part with F6 and F7. Please be careful with sweeping generalisations - it does not defeat the "whole advantage of a tracker". It's a minor inconvenience at worst and only to a minor number of people who use tempo changes.

- why did you change the alt-d block select to start with the MINOR highlight? it should be the MAJOR highlight..

It was requested, and I agreed with the decision - it's more useful/flexible. Selecting MAJOR highlight, makes the composer think in terms of bars, rather than beats, and typesets tracked music. IT2 isn't gospel, and reViSiT isn't IT2.

- alt left/right does nothing, it should jump to the pre/next track and the same column

This will be added.

- it's desperately required to use channel-volume for the midi out stuff, if I want an instrument to be less loud I *must* use the channel-volume, while in IT2 I didn't bother about the channel-volume and used the global channelvolume to put things less loud. Less editing = better, more volume-changes = more editing .. = bad.

Sorry, I don't follow, could you try a slightly more verbose explanation? What are you referring to with "channel-volume" and "global channelvolume" exactly?

MIDI note volumes cannot be controlled independently. Outside of the trigger of a MIDI note (note velocity), a note's volume cannot be changed without affecting all the other notes playing on that MIDI channel. So having the same MIDI instrument playing on two different tracker channels which have different channel volumes would create a conflict - one tries setting the MIDI channel volume to X and, at the same time, the other to Y. IT2's method was far from perfect, and several different MIDI volume architectures were tried in reViSiT before settling on the current one as the best compromise. Ultimately, though, the problem is a failing of the aging MIDI specification.

just use all these factors in a formula to calc the midi volume, based on local channel volume, global channel volume and instrument-volume ..

It's a good theory, but as I said, it doesn't work.

All the best,
Chris

>> Some are features that exclusively appeal to you, and wouldn't be as much use to others.
> Well, you never know that.

No, but I can be pretty certain, and I think my background qualifies me to make those decisions.

> Wouldn't it be the best to have such things customizable then?

Not always. I already have endless ideas for reViSiT and only finite time. I very much welcome suggestions for changes and new features, and all are given serious consideration - a good amount of my to-do list comes from feedback. However, if a suggestion doesn't gel with the reViSiT idiom and can't be adapted to it, it won't make the program. If I actually consider a process to be overcomplicated, too involved, not intuitive enough or too inflexible, I will not even want to add it as an option.

>> the bits of IT2 I don't find sufficiently 'ergonomic' or can't make 'intuitive' will be replaced.
> So, that would only 'appeal to you' eh, perhaps those bits would be useful to others ^_^

'Ergonomics' are principally dictated by physiology, so unless you have a different number of arms or heads than me, I'm probably as much as good a benchmark as anybody. And if something is 'intuitive', it means that the user should be able to learn and use the software using little more than common sense. Since I have written the software from the ground up, there's not much call for me to make it easier for myself to learn - so I don't see how trying to make it so for others is something that will "only appeal to me"!

Obviously, we are both people who have seen the advantages of the tracking method (as pioneered by IT2) and we both recognise the need to see it endure. But I also see the need to make it more accessible - without compromising the efficiency and power of the interface; improving it where possible.

> What's wrong with 30++ banks per instrument? Ever heard of articulation, variations, playstyles etc.?

Yes, I have. I frequently write for orchestras or Wagnerian proportions, and have of course used a variety of different articulations, ornamentations, etc. I have not, however, ever relied on bank switching to acheive this. I also know a considerable number of other composers who don't either.

> And ok, I could program them into vsampler3, but since that has an arcane mouse-interface and
> since that woule be less flex anyway, I'd prefer to load my voices into banks and use revisit to switch
> banks (read: switch articulations)

It sounds very much like you want me (and reViSiT) to account for the failings in your sampler's interface. reViSiT is a primarily composing tool, not a software sampler - one is only included for backwards compatibility, basic usage and the advantages afforded for loop splicing and munging, etc.

There is no real standardisation for bank usage or articulation switching, and no common practise - you use different banks, others use different voices, some use more complicated sysex routines. reViSiT thus supports the fundamentals of MIDI (and a little extra), but will not cater for the myriad of different ways people use it - unless one stands at as the norm.

> Haven't tried the bankswitch command yet, see below.

I would have thought a bank switch effect would give you all the functionality you're looking for, and since this is part of reViSiT's current spec, I'm willing to put the time in to make sure it works properly, so do let me know how you get on. In the future, there will be multiple effect columns, and thus this is almost akin to your own bank switch column.

>> Why? Few other programs need such a feature, why reViSiT? Can't you make do with the maximise button?
> Sometimes the revisit window was completely lost .. it was somewhere.. but where?
> Might have been a bug, dunno. So, since that floating revisit bar is always present, I'd
> thought about using a resetbutton to reposition the revisit window again, in case it was lost.

Okay, it sounds like you're talking about an bringing reViSiT to the foreground, rather than moving the window to the top (e.g. upper half) of the screen, which what it sounded like you were saying. If that's the case, there's good news:

* The "reViSiT Window" (pattern editor, not toolbar), should have it's own separate entry in the Windows task bar. Clicking it will bring it to the foreground.
* This window also has an "Always On Top" feature, toggled using the small button with the lock on it, left of the minimise button (or Ctrl-Alt-T).
* If you're using Manual Keyboard mode, you can also press Ctrl-Alt-R at any stage in the host application and get reViSiT to come to the fore.
* Pressing any of the buttons on the toolbar window should bring the reViSiT Window to fore as well (unless you are closing the window, of course!).

> Ok, don't forget to include the ctrl-double-j feature to apply the effect, works faster than having to press [enter].

Alt-J brings up the "Volume Amplification" window. The "Apply Effect" (without dialog) functionality you speak of is Ctrl-J. In the next release, you will also not have to enter the leading 0's, for entries shorter than 3 digits.

> Well, critical.. it contains octave, position etc.. quite essentials. Can you at least make the font black then??
> (I've a 17" TFT here, the pixels are as sharp as a razor, but that doesn't mean white on
> <insert-lightblue'ish-color> is a relaxed combi..)

I will look into making the white text black and the black text white, but I give no guarantees. From my perspective, the data is a LONG way from being hard to read. Is there anybody else out there who has an opinion...?

>> This is working fine in reViSiT - Alt-F10 solo/unsolos, Alt-F9 mutes/unmutes. Check your findings.
> My findings are fine, it isn't like IT2: go to channel 01, press alt-F10, now go to channel 02 and press alt-F10
> what happens is that you now have 2 solo'ed channels, whereas in IT2 only channel 02 would be solo. Which
> is extremely handy as solo'ing a single channel is one of the most used > things in IT2 and certainly marks
> one of the differences beteen trackers and non-trackers.

No, you're right, it's not 1:1 IT2, but it was by design. The solo button in a number of hosts works as it does in reViSiT, so I thought it was sensible to harmonise the two practices. And one could still get the functionality you speak of by pressing Alt-F10 three times. I have, however, changed this to function as you say, since it is just as easy (and perhaps a little more intuitive) for people to solo and then use Alt-F9 to unmute any companion solo channels.

> (Minor/Major block select) Can it be customized?

It's a possibility. Not a priority now, though. Currently, Alt-D will select a minor highlight, and then double the selection length each time. So, in 4/4 you could just press Alt-D three times to get the Major Highlight. This could be a problem in 3/4, though, since you wouldn't be able to get the bar length. I might set it up so that Alt-D once gives you the Minor (beat), twice gives you the major (bar) and subsequent hits then double the length. How does that sound?

> (Tracker Channel Vol / Inst Vol affecting MIDI Note-On Velocity)

You're right, MIDI velocity is unaffected by anything other than the volume entry of the note-on cell. However, I believe this was also true of IT2. Volume entries WITH the note-on were MIDI Velocity, and those after the note-on were MIDI Channel Volume. I remember thinking long about this when I implemented the MIDI code, but I will just 'revisit' that decision and make sure I still think reViSiT's using the best solution.

> Furthermore: I think I'll try the previous beta again, current one seems to have a major bug when
> controlling VSTi's.. in the instrument screen I seem to be able to play a VSTi instrument well, it
> also works once orso in the pattern-editor, but then it doesn't react to note-off's anymore (have
> to use the panic button in vsampler to make it shutup) and a note-on actually makes things silent,
> when using a note-off the whole thing comes at volume again (so you hear the tails of all the
> instruments you triggered).. uhm.. hope that all makes a bit sense.

I've had reports of similar problems, and the solution seems to be setting the MIDI Delay to 0 (zero) in the Preferences (F12) screen. Let me know if this works.

> {edit} [tab] to browse through your instrument settings could be adjusted a bit, I think it's
> handier/faster to [tab] to a certain 'group' in a tab, rather than to each field. The envelope-loop
> editors are such an example. So, let's say 3..5 times [tab]'ing on a tab and the rest is done with cursors.

You might think about phrasing that as a request/suggestion. However, I can see the merit of making the envelope/loop info into a single tab stop.

Chris

I believe, tor those who only use the first 8 channels anyway, the F1-F8 keys could be very useful. And it's not just people who are writing oldskool 4 or 8 track music, but also those who are only using reViSiT for a part of their piece. For example, those who use reViSiT for drums and the rest of Cubase for melody and harmony - you'll rarely use more than 8 tracks then.

Chris

Hi Maarten,

The MIDI problems are my top priority at the moment, but tracking the problem down is proving elusive. Might have a chance this Sunday to put some time to the problem.

All the best,
Chris

Yes, it looks like LoopBe1 is only one virtual MIDI port. I don't know if perhaps you can install a second copy. However, there is always LoopBe30 - 30 Virtual MIDI ports. It, however, is not free - but it's also not going to break the bank (~?15)!

Chris

Yes, they will run, but you will only experience benefit from 64-bit processing in certain circumstances. For VST plug-ins to get the full benefit, you need: a 64-bit CPU, a 64-bit OS, a 64-bit Host, a 64-bit plug-in standard, and a 64-bit plug-in...

Cubase, as a host, has been updated to support 64-bit.

The VST spec has recently updated to v2.4, adding support for 64-bit processing. reViSiT is currently built on VST 2.3 (32-bit), and I'm currently wary about switching to the new codebase. First of all, it's a lot of work, as some of the reViSiT code might need updating. Secondly, I need to be absolutely sure that VST 2.4 plug-ins can run perfectly in VST 2.3 hosts (since some other things have changed too). For example, if they can't, reViSiT will lose all it's Logic 5 users.

Even if reViSiT does switch to v2.4, it will not herald an automatic performance boost, as reViSiT's code isn't yet written to support a 64-bit architecture. It will have to be coded separately.

However, even if reViSiT stays with 32-bit/VST 2.3 for a while, you will still be able to benefit from other plug-ins that have 64-bit optimisations (reducing system overhead). They might be a little thin on the ground right now (it has only been possible to write 64-bit VST plug-ins since late January, when the SDK was released), but they should be forthcoming. Also, it has always been possible for plug-ins to use 64-bit variables internally (even on 32-bit processors) - it is only the values passed to and from the host that were fixed at 32-bits. So, reViSiT already uses 64-bit precision (that's foresight for you), so it is possible that even the current reViSIT could show a performance boost.

So, I wouldn't be worried about moving to 64-bits. Personally, I'd favour Intel over AMD, but that's just my preference. I'm waiting for a desktop Yonah option - but then I'm intolerant of ANY noise.

Hope this helps,
Chris

Hi Maarten,

* non-64 pattern-length bugs obviously.. I can't even access a certain pattern anymore, num+/- goes from 00 01 03 04 .. it refuses to go to 02. :P .. oh, and now it does not play anymore .. I've seen it elsewhere on this page.. but.. ahwell: *bump*.

Can you send me files where this is the case?

* Could there be some automation (a key?) in quickly setting-up instruments 01..n to programchange 00..n-1, [output] on, and midichannel (01..n-1) mod 16? To access my sounds in vsampler (or whatever plug for that matter) currently requires me to perform an arcane clicking/moving/typing carnaval on all thse instruments. I'm sure there are zillions of configs, so just to pick one scheme might be 'limited' in your pov, but I gather this particular setup is quite common. Saving a template won't really do.. you know how things work.. you start with some instruments, you already have some patterns, then you won't just trash it away in order to load a template..

I might make it so that, by default, the MIDI channel of an instrument is set to channel# mod 16, but I think the automation key would only be of limited use (and potentially confusing).

* set patternlength to pattern x..y. IT function, missing in revisit. ctrl-F2 in IT. (I'll use it when variable pattern lengths aren't buggy anymore :P)

Huh, never seen that feature before. Not exactly earth-shattering when you have Alt-Delete and variable pattern lengths. I'll add it at somepoint.

* having the possibility to play the selected sound on the (pc-)keyboard while changing the "Program No." bar in the MIDI output part of the instr.screen. All I see now is a number, and I must go back to the instrument-list to play. And that's just way too many tabs and cursors..
Perhaps this is an option:
- remember the position of the cursor in the instrument tab
- have a global key to quickly switch between instrument-list and instrument-tab (with the cursor-pos it just remembered)
This would allow to quickly make changes without all the tab'ing.

Both ideas are impractical. I might, however, be able to make it so that the keyboard-audition is available from the "Program No." field.

* insert/delete channels accross the whole tune. I usually group things together (strings, wood, brass, drums etc. etc.) and when I suddenly decide to have another instrument in some group I can't really insert it there as on that spot the new group begins.. like: strings on chn 01-05, wood on 07-12, brass on 14-18, if I want to insert another 2 woodwinds it's somewhat of a problem.. so I'd like to insert channels on that spot (at track 13).

I like the insert/delete channel idea, but prefer pattern-scope.

* is it possible to have a background color per track? Would be a nice way to quickly identify an instrument, not a bad feature when your pattern sports 64 channels and when the display is rather small'ish yet. Don't worry, I wouldn't make those backgroundcolors bright pink orso.. just some very dark colors.. :P

There are lots of pattern display enhancements planned - including channel renaming, channel header colours (not background) and even channel waveform previews (the background shows the audio waveform produced by the foreground row entries).

* scroll-lock to follow a track was a very nice feature in IT.. you hear a bug while playing, press scroll-lock and you're at the right spot to bugfix it! Can we have it? :P

This is also planned - previously discussed as "Pattern Follow".

* regulary I encounter some weird issues with the MIDI output thing. I dunno who or what bugs, but when all the channels/programs are setup correctly I still hear the wrong instruments sometimes.. do you send out a program change upon changing it? Sometimes it really takes a few play/stops and some repairwork in vsampler to get the right instrument on the right channel.

reViSiT does try to send program change message out whenever needed. I could do with more information about this problem - a sample file, or a procedure to reproduce the error.

* is it possible to also customize to swap F1 and F11? I'll be slapped severly for this prolly, but I always use the -k option at IT2.. that's ST3 legacy even. :P

No. F1 will be 'help', in keeping with convention. It will not be customisable. The days of ST3 are here ended.

* ctrl-ins, ctrl-del on a block in IT2 rotates the content of the blockdefinition wrap-around. I was in fact the one who suggested that to Jeffrey Lim in the first place.. so I'll do it again here. ^_^

Are you saying that it rotates the data within the block? For example, with a 4-row selection, Ctrl-Ins will change the row order to 4,1,2,3? My copy of IT2 does not do this.

Anyway, after a number of days things seem to get better, but unfortunately not up to vintage IT2 comfort yet. It's quite 'messy' (for lack of a better word) to have 3 seperate parts: a synth, a host and a tracker.

reViSiT is not written as just another tracker and is not just another Impulse Tracker 2 clone. The plug-in architecture is one of the core ingredients. It is designed to work with the sequencer, not in lieu of it. The idea is to write part of your song in the sequencer and half in the tracker. If you can convince Steinberg to integrate the reViSiT interface as part of the host, sure, but don't hold your breath!

It's mainly the lack of tempo-controls I miss in revisit, and the keyboard issues. In the ideal case revisit would be a host itself so there'd really only be revisit and some vst plugins, without the need of a 3rd-party host.. is that possible?

I have begun work on a dedicated ASIO host that will effectively make reViSiT standalone (based on VSTHost), but the initial version will not support other VSTi synths (though I obviously hope to add this later). It will be available free and will solve all keyboard problems (all keys go to reViSiT, of course). Then I will look at hosting other VSTi's or perhaps adding Rewire support. It might also possible to give reViSiT control of the tempo/playback rate. However, note that since this project doesn't gel with the reViSiT concept, it's not top priority.

Actually it's all a bit like what you wrote in that thesis... it's either fast/efficient but perhaps a bit bitchy to learn, or it's a n00b-proof design and quite mouse'ish and slow.

Actually, the thesis talks about that tradeoff as 'perceived wisdom'. Many programmers see it as the case and thus don't put in the effort to design fast, efficient and yet intuitive control methods. For what it's worth, I have just been accepted to Cambridge to study this very topic as a PhD. And reViSiT will be a case study.

For the moment, vsampler and cubase (or usually any vst plug for that matter) sit in the safe/simple corner, while you try to interfere with a fast/key-design. Have you ever wondered whether that could be combined anyway?

This is one of the goals of reViSiT - making tracking more accessible to musicians. First step was to add a tracker to the environment which the musicians inhabit (the sequencer). The second step is to get it up to the power/usability of Impulse Tracker. The final (and neverending) step is to make it both more powerful and more usable (even 'easy').

A game-gfx designer (I do those things a lot) would in my case be a design-'instrument' rather than a typical tool.. one needs to learn it but can eventually use it with great speed.

My approach is to go one step further. To present the user with a learning stage is a total turn-off. Yeah, sure, have mouse and keyboard options, but have a mode of use that is accessbile to the complete novice - no learning required. Then design the interface so that they implicitly learn the faster/more powerful methods without knowing they're "in school". reViSiT not quite there yet (it still borrows too much from IT2), but I have plans.

All the best,
Chris